Legislature(2011 - 2012)HOUSE FINANCE 519

02/18/2011 01:30 PM House FINANCE


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01:36:25 PM Start
01:37:08 PM Revenue Forecast and Savings Accounts
03:22:12 PM Adjourn
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ Presentation: TELECONFERENCED
Revenue Forecast & Savings Accounts by Bryan
Butcher, Commissioner, Dept. of Revenue
+ Bills Previously Heard/Scheduled TELECONFERENCED
                  HOUSE FINANCE COMMITTEE                                                                                       
                     February 18, 2011                                                                                          
                         1:36 p.m.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
1:36:25 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CALL TO ORDER                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Thomas  called the House Finance  Committee meeting                                                                    
to order at 1:36 p.m.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Representative Bill Stoltze, Co-Chair                                                                                           
Representative Bill Thomas Jr., Co-Chair                                                                                        
Representative Anna Fairclough, Vice-Chair                                                                                      
Representative Mia Costello                                                                                                     
Representative Mike Doogan                                                                                                      
Representative Bryce Edgmon                                                                                                     
Representative Les Gara                                                                                                         
Representative David Guttenberg                                                                                                 
Representative Reggie Joule                                                                                                     
Representative Mark Neuman                                                                                                      
Representative Tammie Wilson                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
None                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
ALSO PRESENT                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Bryan  Butcher, Commissioner,  Department of  Revenue; Jerry                                                                    
Burnett, Deputy Commissioner,  Treasury Division, Department                                                                    
of  Revenue;   Bruce  Tangeman,  Deputy   Commissioner,  Tax                                                                    
Division,   Department  of   Revenue;  Representative   John                                                                    
Coghill.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
PRESENT VIA TELECONFERENCE                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Cheryl   Nienhuis,   Petroleum  Economist,   Tax   Division,                                                                    
Department of  Revenue; Frank Molli, Petroleum  Engineer and                                                                    
President, Molli Computer Services, Inc.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
SUMMARY                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Revenue Forecast and Savings Accounts                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
^REVENUE FORECAST AND SAVINGS ACCOUNTS                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:37:08 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
BRYAN  BUTCHER, COMMISSIONER,  DEPARTMENT OF  REVENUE (DOR),                                                                    
introduced department  staff and provided an  outline of the                                                                    
presentation  topics.   He  began   on  slide   4  ("Revenue                                                                    
Classification  Changes")   of  a   PowerPoint  presentation                                                                    
titled  "Overview   of  Fall  2010  Revenue   Forecast."  He                                                                    
discussed that  previously there had been  two categories of                                                                    
revenue: unrestricted and restricted.  Changes had been made                                                                    
to increase the number of  revenue categories to four, which                                                                    
included  unrestricted  general   fund,  designated  general                                                                    
fund,  other restricted,  and  federal  revenue (the  latter                                                                    
three  categories  previously  fell  within  the  restricted                                                                    
group). He  explained that the  change was reflected  in the                                                                    
department's  Revenue Source  Book.  He  delineated that  in                                                                    
addition to  historical data and forecast  information, each                                                                    
year the  source book  had a special  focus; the  2010 focus                                                                    
was on tax credits.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner Butcher  pointed to estimates of  total revenue                                                                    
on slide  5: "FY 11 and  FY 12 Total Revenue."  He discussed                                                                    
the "unrestricted  general fund"  category: the  oil revenue                                                                    
estimate was  $4.6 billion  for FY 11  and slightly  over $5                                                                    
billion for  FY 12; other  sources were slightly  under $500                                                                    
million  for  FY  11  and  FY  12;  investment  revenue  was                                                                    
estimated at approximately $200 million  and above for FY 11                                                                    
and  FY 12.  "Designated  general funds"  were estimated  at                                                                    
$281 million  for FY 11  and $282  million for FY  12. Under                                                                    
the category of "other  restricted revenue," oil revenue was                                                                    
slightly under $700  million for FY 11 and  $755 million for                                                                    
FY 12. He noted that  federal receipts were slightly over $3                                                                    
billion for FY 11 and  approximately $100 million less in FY                                                                    
12; these funds  were the most restricted  because the state                                                                    
was required to use them for specific purposes.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Wilson had  heard  multiple  times that  oil                                                                    
revenue  would drop;  she  wondered  why projections  showed                                                                    
that it would continue to increase.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner Butcher responded that  oil production had been                                                                    
on  the  decline;  however,  the   price  of  oil  had  been                                                                    
increasing.  The  department  expected a  slight  growth  in                                                                    
revenue due to the increase in oil price.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Wilson asked  whether  DOR anticipated  that                                                                    
the price  of oil would  increase by  at least 6  percent in                                                                    
the  upcoming year.  Commissioner Butcher  responded in  the                                                                    
affirmative. He  added that there  was additional  price and                                                                    
production forecast detail later in the presentation.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Gara asked  for a  definition of  restricted                                                                    
oil revenue.  He pointed  to the  restricted revenue  in the                                                                    
amount of $669 million for FY  11 and $755 million for FY 12                                                                    
and  wondered whether  funds were  classified as  restricted                                                                    
because they were related to  capital credits that the state                                                                    
owed.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner  Butcher  responded  that  restricted  category                                                                    
included revenue  that went into  the Alaska  Permanent Fund                                                                    
and the Constitutional Budget Reserve (CBR).                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Gara wondered  whether capital  credits fell                                                                    
into the  restricted category because they  related to money                                                                    
the  state owed  to  others.  Commissioner Butcher  answered                                                                    
that  capital credits  were classified  as money  going out;                                                                    
whereas,  the current  slide pertained  to revenue  that was                                                                    
coming in (slide 5).                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Representative   Guttenberg   asked   whether  the   FY   11                                                                    
restricted  oil  revenue  in the  amount  of  $19.5  million                                                                    
represented 10  percent of the 90  percent/10 percent split.                                                                    
He  referred to  the commissioner's  comment that  the funds                                                                    
were  the most  restricted  because  the federal  government                                                                    
required the state to use them for specific items.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner Butcher replied that  the funding was coming in                                                                    
from National Petroleum Reserve-Alaska (NPRA).                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Guttenberg  wondered   why  the  funds  were                                                                    
restricted. Commissioner Butcher  clarified that his comment                                                                    
about  the   most  restrictive  revenue  had   been  related                                                                    
specifically to federal receipts.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner Butcher  discussed a breakdown  of unrestricted                                                                    
revenue  on  slide  6:  "FY   11  and  FY  12  General  Fund                                                                    
Unrestricted   Revenue."   The  department   expected   that                                                                    
approximately 50  percent of the unrestricted  revenue would                                                                    
come from  the oil  production tax  or ACES  [Alaska's Clear                                                                    
and  Equitable Share].  He explained  that slightly  over 25                                                                    
percent  came  from  royalty   revenue,  slightly  under  10                                                                    
percent  came from  corporate income  tax, and  less than  2                                                                    
percent  was generated  from property  tax. Non-oil  revenue                                                                    
totaled slightly under $700 million.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
1:44:29 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative Doogan  asked for details regarding  the $3.3                                                                    
billion  FY  11  investment  revenue   listed  on  slide  5.                                                                    
Commissioner  Butcher  answered  that the  majority  of  the                                                                    
investment  revenue  was  from  the  Alaska  Permanent  Fund                                                                    
Corporation (APFC).                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Representative Doogan  wondered whether the  term "majority"                                                                    
meant 80 percent or other in the specific case.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
JERRY  BURNETT,  DEPUTY   COMMISSIONER,  TREASURY  DIVISION,                                                                    
DEPARTMENT OF  REVENUE, answered  that the APFC  portion was                                                                    
approximately $2.5 billion; the  remaining $842 million came                                                                    
from the  CBR. He noted  that to-date both areas  had earned                                                                    
significantly   more  than   the  figures   listed  in   the                                                                    
presentation.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner Butcher  directed attention to slide  7: "FY 11                                                                    
and FY  12 Unrestricted  Non-Oil Revenue Detail."  The slide                                                                    
included  the   top  five   largest  taxes   including:  (1)                                                                    
corporate  income  tax  of approximately  $80  million;  (2)                                                                    
mining  tax of  slightly  under $50  million; (3)  insurance                                                                    
premiums at  slightly over $50  million; (4) tobacco  tax of                                                                    
$44 million; and,  (5) motor fuel tax of  slightly under $40                                                                    
million.  He   explained  that  "investments"   and  "other"                                                                    
(charges   for  services,   fines,  forfeitures,   licenses,                                                                    
permit, rents, ect.) totaled approximately $159 million.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Representative   Gara   asked   for  verification   that   a                                                                    
corporation  was  only  required to  pay  non-oil  corporate                                                                    
income  tax  if  it  was  registered  as  a  C  corporation.                                                                    
Commissioner Butcher responded in the affirmative.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Representative   Gara   queried   the   logic   behind   the                                                                    
requirement.  Mr.  Burnett   answered  that  the  individual                                                                    
owners of  an S corporation  were taxed on  their individual                                                                    
income  and  were  not  taxed on  corporate  income  at  the                                                                    
federal  level.  The  State  of   Alaska  did  not  have  an                                                                    
individual  income tax  or a  business  tax; therefore,  the                                                                    
statute  would have  to be  modified in  order to  include S                                                                    
Corporations.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Representative Gara believed the  issue reflected a loophole                                                                    
in  state  law.  He  surmised that  a  savvy  company  could                                                                    
register  as an  S Corporation  to avoid  corporate tax  and                                                                    
unlike  other states,  Alaska did  not have  an income  tax;                                                                    
therefore, the companies would avoid income tax as well.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Burnett responded  that  currently LLCs,  partnerships,                                                                    
and  S Corporations  did  not pay  corporate  income tax  in                                                                    
Alaska.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Representative Gara asked whether  the corporations would be                                                                    
exempt  from  the corporate  income  tax  regardless of  the                                                                    
level of profits they brought in.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Burnett responded  in the affirmative and  likened it to                                                                    
the state's absence of individual income tax.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner  Butcher  addressed  slide  9  titled  "10-Year                                                                    
Revenue and  Spending," that combined general  fund expenses                                                                    
with  oil  income  and  other  for the  next  10  years.  He                                                                    
detailed  that  a  3  percent  budget  escalation  had  been                                                                    
factored into  the data.  He noted that  the slide  had been                                                                    
submitted  to DOR  by the  Office of  Management and  Budget                                                                    
(OMB); therefore, departmental input  on future spending was                                                                    
not included. The chart forecasted  that the total amount of                                                                    
reserves  could  potentially  increase  up  to  $27  billion                                                                    
through FY 20, given an annual 3 percent budget escalation.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:49:52 PM                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                              
Co-Chair  Thomas   asked  whether  the  chart   on  slide  9                                                                    
reflected the current ACES  tax system. Commissioner Butcher                                                                    
responded in the affirmative.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Representative Gara  wondered how  confident he  should feel                                                                    
about the  projections of budget surpluses  in future years.                                                                    
He believed there  were a couple of problems  with the chart                                                                    
on slide  9. He  detailed that the  governor's FY  12 budget                                                                    
showed  a   deficit  of  approximately  $150   million  (not                                                                    
including  the  possibility of  a  change  to Medicaid  that                                                                    
would  result in  higher cost  to the  state); however,  the                                                                    
chart indicated it was in a surplus.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner Butcher responded that  he would need to follow                                                                    
up  on the  question. He  opined that  OMB had  intended the                                                                    
chart  to  provide  a  snapshot  for  the  future  based  on                                                                    
relatively constant spending (including  an annual 3 percent                                                                    
inflation)  combined  with  the  production  and  oil  price                                                                    
estimates.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Representative Gara  remarked that the legislature  had been                                                                    
told there  was a FY 12  budget deficit of $150  million. He                                                                    
believed there would  be an additional $1.2  billion cost to                                                                    
the state  if the governor's  oil tax bill [HB  110] passed.                                                                    
He was concerned that the  combination of the two would mean                                                                    
a potential $1.4 billion deficit for the state in FY 12.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner Butcher  responded that the governor's  oil tax                                                                    
legislation would  not take effect  until 2013 if  it passed                                                                    
and would not impact FY 12.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Representative Doogan  believed that  beginning in  2013 the                                                                    
total givebacks  from the governor's  oil tax bill  would be                                                                    
closer to $1.5 billion or  $1.6 billion. He wondered why the                                                                    
chart  on   slide  9  did  not   include  capital  expenses.                                                                    
Commissioner Butcher  thought that  OMB had  grouped capital                                                                    
expenses in with the revenue  and spending figures; however,                                                                    
OMB could provide more detail.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Representative Doogan  replied that he would  follow up with                                                                    
OMB, given  that the  chart did not  appear to  have capital                                                                    
expenses included.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Wilson  wondered  whether  the  commissioner                                                                    
could recall  a time  when the  budget had  only grown  by 3                                                                    
percent  from one  year to  the  next. Commissioner  Butcher                                                                    
believed there were  some years in the late  1990s and early                                                                    
2000s when the budget grew  by 3 percent. He remembered that                                                                    
the 3 percent  growth had occurred, but he  did not remember                                                                    
an exact time period.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Wilson requested  that  OMB  update slide  9                                                                    
with  a revised  budget growth  figure. She  added that  the                                                                    
chart  reflected   a  ten-year   period  and   believed  the                                                                    
committee should not have to go  back more than ten years to                                                                    
find  an occurrence  of the  3 percent  growth that  OMB had                                                                    
used.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Edgmon believed  that slide  9 conveyed  the                                                                    
wrong  picture if  the purpose  was to  provide a  projected                                                                    
snapshot of state revenue and spending.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner   Butcher  understood   but  could   not  speak                                                                    
specifically to the  intent behind the slide.  He added that                                                                    
the use of  a 6 percent to 7 percent  annual budget increase                                                                    
would look different; however, the  chart would still show a                                                                    
substantial projected  surplus in  later years based  on the                                                                    
price of oil.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Representative Edgmon  emphasized that the 3  percent annual                                                                    
increase did not mirror current  growth, which was closer to                                                                    
10 percent per year.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
1:55:48 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Gara wondered  what  would  make the  budget                                                                    
surplus  grow in  future years.  He remarked  that he  would                                                                    
love  to  see   the  surplus  grow;  however,   he  did  not                                                                    
understand how a potential deficit  in FY 12 of $150 million                                                                    
combined  with a  decrease in  oil production  and a  slight                                                                    
increase   in   oil   price  would   make   that   possible.                                                                    
Additionally, he asked whether  there was an assumption that                                                                    
Congress would  modify the  Medicaid law,  which it  had not                                                                    
done.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner  Butcher replied  that the  question should  be                                                                    
directed to John Boucher at OMB.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Representative Doogan  communicated that the slide  had been                                                                    
presented to  the committee  by DOR  and was  misleading. He                                                                    
only wanted  to see the slide  again in the future  if there                                                                    
was support for the information that it contained.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Thomas  noted  that   he  was  interested  in  the                                                                    
projections  that had  been used  for  the price  of oil  in                                                                    
slide 9.  He thought  that OMB  could potentially  have more                                                                    
current  numbers that  reflected an  increase in  oil prices                                                                    
and would modify the FY 12 budget.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner  Butcher   replied  that   there  would   be  a                                                                    
discussion  about FY  11,  FY 12,  and FY  13  later in  the                                                                    
presentation.  He added  that the  DOR Revenue  Sources Book                                                                    
provided more detail as well.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner  Butcher   moved  on   to  slide  11:   "FY  10                                                                    
Production Tax  Calculation." He explained that  the average                                                                    
cost  per barrel  of  oil in  FY 10  was  $74.90, which  was                                                                    
multiplied by  643,515 barrels to  equal the value  per day.                                                                    
The  number  of  total  taxable barrels  was  calculated  by                                                                    
subtracting the 31,067,340 royalty  and federal barrels from                                                                    
the  annual North  Slope  production  of 234,883,705,  which                                                                    
equaled  the total  taxable barrels  of  203.8 million.  The                                                                    
downstream transportation  costs of approximately  $6.00 per                                                                    
barrel,  the  deductible  operating  lease  expenditures  of                                                                    
approximately $10.64 per barrel,  and the deductible capital                                                                    
lease expenditures of $8.55 per  barrel were then subtracted                                                                    
from  the total  value per  barrel and  equaled $49.69.  The                                                                    
total  transportation  costs  and total  lease  expenditures                                                                    
were each multiplied  by the 203.8 million  barrels per year                                                                    
and  subtracted  from  the  total  value,  which  equaled  a                                                                    
production tax  value (PTV)  of just  under $4  billion. The                                                                    
PTV of  $49.69 was multiplied  by the 203.8  million barrels                                                                    
and  equaled  $10,128,100  billion,  which  represented  the                                                                    
total taxed by  the state. It was necessary  to multiply the                                                                    
tax base  of 25  percent by  the PTV  and to  add it  to the                                                                    
progressive tax rate (which began  at $30 per barrel and had                                                                    
a 0.4  percent increase  for every dollar  up to  $49.69) of                                                                    
7.9 percent  to reach  the total tax  due before  credits of                                                                    
$3.329 billion.  The total tax  due and the credits  of $350                                                                    
million were  then subtracted  and equaled  the total  FY 10                                                                    
production tax of $2,979,800. He  added that the calculation                                                                    
had been simplified somewhat for  the presentation and would                                                                    
not match the Revenue Source Book precisely.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner Butcher pointed to  slide 12: "FY 11 Production                                                                    
Tax  Projected." He  highlighted that  the price  per barrel                                                                    
was projected  to be approximately  $3.00 higher  per barrel                                                                    
than  in  FY 10.  The  production  was approximately  30,000                                                                    
barrels less  than in  FY 10.  The total  production revenue                                                                    
was projected to be down almost  $400 million from FY 10. He                                                                    
added that  the calculations were based  on the department's                                                                    
fall 2010 forecast in the  Revenue Sources Book; there would                                                                    
be  an updated  spring forecast  issued in  late March  2011                                                                    
that  would  provide  a  more  accurate  view  to  date,  an                                                                    
estimate of the end of FY 11, and updated FY 12 numbers.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Representative Wilson  wondered whether  the total  would be                                                                    
$79.39 per barrel in FY 11 if  there was a gain of 6 percent                                                                    
that  had been  discussed on  slide 9.  Commissioner Butcher                                                                    
replied that  the department could  provide a  very specific                                                                    
breakdown.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Representative Wilson  thought that  there had  been earlier                                                                    
testimony that a 6 percent gain  was needed to counter the 6                                                                    
percent drop in production. She  noted that slides 11 and 12                                                                    
did not reflect a gain of 6 percent.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner  Butcher answered  that  the  total taxes  that                                                                    
would  come  in  during  FY  11  were  not  limited  to  the                                                                    
production tax, which represented  slightly below 50 percent                                                                    
of what the state brought in.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
2:03:50 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner Butcher directed attention  to slide 13: "FY 12                                                                    
Production Tax  Projected." He  reiterated that  the figures                                                                    
on  the slide  came from  the  DOR fall  2010 forecast.  The                                                                    
price  per barrel  of $82.67  was  almost $5  more than  the                                                                    
price in  FY 11. The  number of  barrels was projected  at a                                                                    
slight increase  of 7,000 barrels  over FY 11;  however, the                                                                    
fall forecast had  assumed that the Liberty  oil field would                                                                    
begin  operation  in   FY  12,  which  was   not  the  case;                                                                    
therefore,  the  numbers  would be  revised  in  the  spring                                                                    
forecast.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Gara  pointed  to $450  million  in  credits                                                                    
applied  against taxes  that were  listed at  the bottom  of                                                                    
slide 13. He wondered whether  an additional $400 million in                                                                    
credits that the  state reimbursed to companies  who did not                                                                    
pay taxes was included in the calculation.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHERYL   NIENHUIS,   PETROLEUM  ECONOMIST,   TAX   DIVISION,                                                                    
DEPARTMENT OF  REVENUE (via teleconference),  responded that                                                                    
the tax  credits, which  would be refunded  for FY  12, were                                                                    
not reflected  in slide 13.  She explained that  the credits                                                                    
paid through  refunds were appropriated by  the legislature;                                                                    
therefore, they  were not included  in the  incoming revenue                                                                    
tax calculation.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Gara  asked  whether  the  total  tax  after                                                                    
credits on the  bottom line of slide 13 should  be closer to                                                                    
$2.3 billion instead of $2.754 billion.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Ms.  Nienhuis answered  that  the state  would  take in  the                                                                    
total production  tax revenue  listed on  slide 13,  but the                                                                    
appropriation for  the credits would be  a different amount.                                                                    
She believed  the number  was close to  $400 million  for FY                                                                    
12.                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Representative Gara asked whether the  total FY 12 tax after                                                                    
credits would  be less than  $2.7 billion, given  that slide                                                                    
13  reflected $450  million in  credits funded  to companies                                                                    
that paid tax,  but did not reflect $400  million in credits                                                                    
paid to companies that did not pay tax.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Nienhuis  replied that the  state would see  revenues of                                                                    
approximately   $2.7  billion,   but  there   would  be   an                                                                    
appropriation  made by  the legislature  for the  refundable                                                                    
credits.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
BRUCE   TANGEMAN,   DEPUTY   COMMISSIONER,   TAX   DIVISION,                                                                    
DEPARTMENT  OF   REVENUE,  added  that  the   actual  credit                                                                    
calculation applied  against the tax liability  would appear                                                                    
under the deductible operating  and capital expenditures. He                                                                    
explained that the appropriation would  be to cover the $450                                                                    
million  in  credits.  He  detailed   that  there  were  two                                                                    
different types  of credits: (1)  credits that  were applied                                                                    
against  the tax  liability, which  would  appear under  the                                                                    
operating  and  capital   expenditure  reduction;  and,  (2)                                                                    
capital credits  that were paid  out to those without  a tax                                                                    
liability, which were the $450 shown on slide 13.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Gara   asked  for  clarification   that  the                                                                    
additional   credits   were   included   under   the   lease                                                                    
expenditures  category; therefore,  the $2.7  billion figure                                                                    
was accurate on slide 13.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Tangeman responded in the affirmative.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner Butcher  discussed that  the components  of the                                                                    
production  tax  calculation   included  production,  price,                                                                    
lease expenditures, and tax credits (slide 14).                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Representative    Edgmon    wondered    why    the    marine                                                                    
transportation costs had  decreased in FY 10  through FY 12,                                                                    
but the TAPS  Tariff had steadily increased  during the same                                                                    
period (slide 13).                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner   Butcher  replied   that  as   oil  production                                                                    
declined  the  tariff  increased because  there  were  fewer                                                                    
barrels traveling through the pipeline.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
2:10:08 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner Butcher  addressed slides 16 through  17 titled                                                                    
"Three Categories  of Forecasted Production:"  (1) Currently                                                                    
Producing  fields  included  base  production  and  enhanced                                                                    
recovery  production  from  investment  that  was  currently                                                                    
occurring. He  noted that numbers  in the  category provided                                                                    
more  certainty in  a forecast,  given  that they  reflected                                                                    
currently producing  wells; (2) Currently  Under Development                                                                    
fields included  new projects that were  currently funded or                                                                    
were  awaiting project  sanction  in the  near future  (e.g.                                                                    
Nakiachuk, which  had been under  development and  had begun                                                                    
producing a couple of weeks  earlier). He relayed that there                                                                    
was  less certainty  with the  numbers,  but the  department                                                                    
felt  comfortable with  them; and,  (3) the  Currently Under                                                                    
Evaluation category  was the most  speculative of  the three                                                                    
and  included  technically   viable  projects  under  active                                                                    
evaluation for  engineering, cost, and risk  and reward. The                                                                    
projects  were currently  unfunded  but  were under  serious                                                                    
consideration  by producers.  The numbers  were provided  to                                                                    
give  the state  an idea  of what  the out-years  would look                                                                    
like.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner  Butcher highlighted  the "Factors  that Affect                                                                    
Production Forecasting" on slide 18:                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     1. Geology                                                                                                                 
        · Rock type and formation characteristics                                                                               
        · Depth, thickness, pressure                                                                                            
        · Oil and gas characteristics (oil gravity,                                                                             
          viscosity, water content, etc.)                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     2. Development Plan                                                                                                        
        · Well density and development rate                                                                                     
        · Well bore size and completion technique                                                                               
        · Artificial lift and enhanced oil recovery                                                                             
        · Facilities and surface operations                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     3. Commercial                                                                                                              
        · Project economics                                                                                                     
        · Oil price and market conditions                                                                                       
        · Government Policy: access, regulation, taxation                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     4. Production Profile                                                                                                      
        · History, stage of depletion                                                                                           
        · Use production profile to extrapolate trends                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     5. Timing                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner Butcher  elaborated that the Liberty  oil field                                                                    
provided a  good example of  timing (factor 5).  The process                                                                    
involved discussions  with producers  to determine  when the                                                                    
field  would come  online and  the understanding  that items                                                                    
may arise that could alter  how the department looked at its                                                                    
next forecast.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner  Butcher  pointed  to slide  19:  "North  Slope                                                                    
Production Decline." The production  peak had occurred in FY                                                                    
88 with slightly over 2  million barrels per day. Production                                                                    
had dropped approximately 68 percent  since its peak and was                                                                    
at 644,000  barrels per day in  FY 10. The decline  had been                                                                    
an average  of 5 percent  per year  since FY 88.  He relayed                                                                    
that over  the prior  10 years  the production  decline rate                                                                    
had been approximately 4.2 percent  per year. The department                                                                    
expected the  decline to  flatten out  at about  3.2 percent                                                                    
per year through FY 30.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Vice-chair  Fairclough  asked  for detail  regarding  the  7                                                                    
percent decline  between FY 09 and  FY 10 that was  shown in                                                                    
the DOR forecast book.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner  Butcher  replied  that   the  numbers  in  the                                                                    
presentation  represented an  average  decline  by year.  He                                                                    
thought  that production  forecaster  Frank  Molli would  be                                                                    
able  to   provide  information  regarding   the  difference                                                                    
between the  forecast versus the  actual decline from  FY 09                                                                    
to FY 10.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
FRANK  MOLLI,   PETROLEUM  ENGINEER  AND   PRESIDENT,  MOLLI                                                                    
COMPUTER SERVICES, INC.  (via teleconference), answered that                                                                    
new   development  such   as  Oooguruk,   was  the   largest                                                                    
contributor  to the  decreasing  of  the decline.  Continued                                                                    
development on  the Alpine, Kuparuk, and  Prudhoe oil fields                                                                    
had also contributed to the reduction in the decline.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Vice-chair Fairclough  noted that the revenue  forecast also                                                                    
included a  1 percent  production increase; however,  it had                                                                    
been  determined  that  the number  was  not  accurate.  She                                                                    
believed   the   revenue   production  forecast   was   more                                                                    
optimistic than  it should have  been. She  wondered whether                                                                    
the forecasted decline  would be 4.3 percent or  closer to 6                                                                    
percent, given that Liberty had not come online.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Molli replied  that  he  did not  know  what the  exact                                                                    
decline rate would be. The  startup of Liberty would need to                                                                    
be pushed  further out into  the future, which  would reduce                                                                    
the forecast for  FY 11 and FY 12. He  noted that the spring                                                                    
forecast would be calculated soon.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
2:16:33 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative Costello  referenced a DOR graph  that showed                                                                    
the forecast  from 2001  to 2010.  She wondered  whether DOR                                                                    
had reassessed  how it  determined the  production forecast,                                                                    
given that the  numbers seemed to be  overly optimistic over                                                                    
the ten-year period.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner  Butcher agreed.  He  had  communicated to  the                                                                    
department  his goal  towards objectivity  and accuracy.  He                                                                    
believed  the  forecast had  become  more  aligned when  Mr.                                                                    
Molli became the forecaster two  years earlier. He explained                                                                    
that actual  production tended to be  lower than projections                                                                    
for a couple of  reasons: (1) unscheduled pipeline shutdowns                                                                    
could  not be  factored into  the projection.  He referenced                                                                    
two  unexpected pipeline  shutdowns  that  had occurred  the                                                                    
prior month; and, (2) projects  were never completed earlier                                                                    
than  expected; they  either  began on  time  or later  than                                                                    
anticipated.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative Costello  asked whether the  committee should                                                                    
assume  a  less optimistic  outcome  based  on the  ten-year                                                                    
track record.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner Butcher  replied that the  department developed                                                                    
its   estimates  based   on  information   that  came   from                                                                    
producers. He  believed that  she was  right to  be slightly                                                                    
pessimistic  about  the  forecast; however,  the  department                                                                    
tried  to  develop  a good  estimate  without  being  overly                                                                    
optimistic  about  the  operation   start  dates  of  future                                                                    
projects.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Vice-chair Fairclough  conveyed that  she would like  to see                                                                    
the same conservative approach  in the department's ten-year                                                                    
operating  budget growth  projections.  She  believed the  3                                                                    
percent budget  growth used  on slide 9  was not  helpful in                                                                    
relaying to  Alaskans how  important it  was to  keep budget                                                                    
growth down, given that actual  growth was between 7 percent                                                                    
and 10 percent or more.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
2:21:12 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Joule recalled  that the  production decline                                                                    
had been predominately  at 6 percent for a  number of years.                                                                    
He  asked for  verification  that the  department looked  at                                                                    
historical  data to  determine what  the actual  decline had                                                                    
been. Commissioner Butcher responded in the affirmative.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Representative Joule  wondered whether the decline  had been                                                                    
close  to 6  percent. He  assumed the  meters were  correct,                                                                    
given  that  they  were  used  to  tax  people  to  generate                                                                    
revenue. He felt that the  average decline over the past ten                                                                    
years  of 4.2  percent (shown  on  slide 19)  was 2  percent                                                                    
lower than what Alaskans had been led to believe.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner  Butcher answered  that he  was limited  to the                                                                    
current information.  He explained that the  information was                                                                    
based on historical data and  on the fall 2010 revenue book.                                                                    
He hoped  to be  as specific as  possible going  forward and                                                                    
referenced upcoming  slides that  would show  the historical                                                                    
decline and  the three categories of  production (from least                                                                    
to most speculative).                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Representative Doogan observed  that over the past  30 or so                                                                    
years the revenue projections had  always matched the budget                                                                    
plan of the  governor at the time. He hoped  the trend could                                                                    
be  broken,   but  understood  that  there   were  political                                                                    
considerations.  He  had   learned  approximately  30  years                                                                    
earlier  to not  give much  credence to  the projections  as                                                                    
they never seemed to turn  out they way they were portrayed.                                                                    
He  hoped  that  the  commissioner would  try  to  cure  his                                                                    
skepticism.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner Butcher  responded that  he shared some  of the                                                                    
same concerns. He  would provide more detail  on things that                                                                    
had been  done in the  past several years to  effect change,                                                                    
such as  involving the legislature  and others.  The process                                                                    
in the past  had not been open for  participation, which had                                                                    
changed in recent years.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Vice-chair  Fairclough wondered  whether there  were storage                                                                    
tanks available  on the North  Slope. She asked  whether oil                                                                    
could  have  been  diverted  into  storage  tanks  during  a                                                                    
shutdown and routed through the  pipeline once it was fixed.                                                                    
She  thought that  with storage  tanks there  would be  less                                                                    
production lost  when a line  was shut down, given  that the                                                                    
use of tanks would enable production to continue to flow.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner  Butcher  replied  that  there  was  a  limited                                                                    
storage  capacity. He  would determine  the amount  that had                                                                    
been stored during  the January shutdown and  would get back                                                                    
to the committee.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Vice-chair   Fairclough   referred   to   recent   headlines                                                                    
indicating that  revenue had been lost  during the shutdown.                                                                    
She  found it  hard to  believe that  a producer  would stop                                                                    
production  if they  had storage  capacity to  pump the  oil                                                                    
into, which could prevent the state from losing revenue.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner Butcher  replied that  it had been  unknown how                                                                    
long the shutdown would last  and that production was curbed                                                                    
or stopped  completely. He thought  that the  shutdown would                                                                    
have lasted longer,  but because it had  occurred during the                                                                    
cold winter, the pipeline needed  to be restarted as quickly                                                                    
as possible.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative Wilson wondered  whether the department could                                                                    
provide an  average decline for  each year over the  past 20                                                                    
years.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner  Butcher   answered  in  the   affirmative.  He                                                                    
relayed that the  department would provide the  graph if the                                                                    
information did not appear in the source book.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
2:28:42 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative Wilson remarked that  there were years within                                                                    
the  past ten-year  period where  production had  increased,                                                                    
which may  have caused the  average decline to  appear lower                                                                    
than it had been in more recent years.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner  Butcher   replied  that   he  would   get  the                                                                    
information to the committee. He  did not recall whether the                                                                    
decline had  shifted from  6 percent to  5 percent  and what                                                                    
the cause had been.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Tangeman  communicated  that  page 98  of  the  Revenue                                                                    
Source  Book showed  a history  by  field for  the past  ten                                                                    
years  and page  99 showed  the  forecast for  the next  ten                                                                    
years.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Edgmon asked  whether the  factors affecting                                                                    
production forecasting on slide 18 were listed statutorily.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner  Butcher responded  that the  factors had  been                                                                    
compiled  by Mr.  Molli and  represented a  general view  of                                                                    
items  that  were  weighed during  the  development  of  the                                                                    
production forecast.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Joule  wondered  how  long it  took  DOR  to                                                                    
decipher  the geology  information  (slide 18)  once it  had                                                                    
been received from the oil  industry. He remembered that the                                                                    
information had required translation in the past.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner Butcher confirmed  that the geology information                                                                    
did come from producers. He asked Mr. Molli to elaborate.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Molli   replied  that   the  geology   information  was                                                                    
accessible  to   the  public  and  was   generally  used  to                                                                    
determine  the  original oil  that  was  in place  prior  to                                                                    
production.  He  did  not  know   how  far  in  advance  the                                                                    
information was  made public. He  added that  the department                                                                    
did rely  on the information  from operators and  the Alaska                                                                    
Oil and Gas Conservation Commission (AOGCC).                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Guttenberg discussed  how  important it  was                                                                    
for  the legislature,  DOR, and  the  Department of  Natural                                                                    
Resources  (DNR) to  understand  the  factors that  affected                                                                    
production  forecasting   (slide  18).  He   referenced  the                                                                    
various decline rates  on slide 19. He  wondered whether the                                                                    
department  had  reevaluated   prior  forecasts  with  known                                                                    
factors  that affected  production forecasting  to determine                                                                    
whether the original timeline was accurate.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner Butcher  would find out whether  there was time                                                                    
and the  ability to uncover  the details that had  gone into                                                                    
prior forecasts  to determine  whether there  was a  flaw in                                                                    
previous work. He explained that  because Mr. Molli had only                                                                    
done the forecasts for the past  couple of years, he did not                                                                    
have  complete   transparency  regarding  factors   used  in                                                                    
earlier calculations.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Thomas referred back to  slide 9 that OMB had added                                                                    
to the  DOR presentation. He  was concerned that  the public                                                                    
would look at  the 3 percent projected budget  growth on the                                                                    
slide and  would then  blame the  legislature if  the growth                                                                    
ended up  much higher.  He hoped  people would  realize that                                                                    
the  number was  not firm  and would  shift as  supplemental                                                                    
increases  or  budget  amendments  from  the  governor  were                                                                    
added. He  believed the current budget  increase had started                                                                    
at 4.8 percent before any other additions were made.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
2:35:54 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner  Butcher   surmised  that   OMB  had   used  an                                                                    
inflation factor to estimate a  percentage it could use over                                                                    
a 10 to  20 year period instead of trying  to estimate where                                                                    
the budget would be growing in 5 to 10 years.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner  Butcher  relayed  that slide  20  titled  "ANS                                                                    
Production  History  and  Forecast," showed  the  historical                                                                    
view of the  Alaska North Slope (ANS)  production curve from                                                                    
its peak  in 1988 through  two significant declines  and out                                                                    
at a  more gradual rate  of decline through 2019.  The chart                                                                    
also  included a  breakdown by  oil field  to show  how each                                                                    
field had factored into the  overall decline. He highlighted                                                                    
that  Prudhoe  had been  the  largest  contributor and  that                                                                    
Kuparuk's  impact  had  been  much  smaller,  but  was  more                                                                    
substantial  than the  other fields.  He  detailed that  the                                                                    
forecast did not include the  Outer Continental Shelf (OCS),                                                                    
NPRA  outside  of  Moose's  Tooth, or  heavy  oil  that  was                                                                    
currently under development at Ugnu.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner   Butcher  detailed   that   slide  21   titled                                                                    
"Forecasted  ANS  Production  FY   2010  -  2020,"  provided                                                                    
historical  data   and  a  forecast  of   fields  that  were                                                                    
currently   producing,   under    development,   and   under                                                                    
evaluation.  The  chart  illustrated   the  three  types  of                                                                    
fields: (1)  currently producing  fields and  their forecast                                                                    
curve  for  over  the  next   10  years;  (2)  fields  under                                                                    
development, which  reduced the  decline curve in  the near-                                                                    
term;  and, (3)  fields  under evaluation,  which were  more                                                                    
speculative and shown in the later years.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Gara asked  for an  example of  major fields                                                                    
that  were  currently under  development  and  the level  of                                                                    
production expected.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Molli  responded that projects anticipated  in the under                                                                    
development category  were Liberty  with peak  production of                                                                    
38,000  barrels,   Nakiachuk  with  a  peak   production  of                                                                    
approximately  26,000  barrels,  and  continued  development                                                                    
within the Alpine, Prudhoe, and Kuparuk fields.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Vice-chair  Fairclough  queried  whether  the  inclusion  of                                                                    
Prudhoe  Bay was  based on  investment in  viscous or  heavy                                                                    
crude production. Mr. Molli answered  that the items had not                                                                    
been  included  for Prudhoe  Bay;  however,  there was  some                                                                    
viscous oil production in areas  such as Schrader Bluff that                                                                    
had been included; heavy oil had not been included.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
2:40:02 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative Gara  had heard  about substantial  stores of                                                                    
heavy oil at Kaparuk and  Prudhoe Bay and believed there had                                                                    
been  heavy oil  production at  Schrader Bluff.  He wondered                                                                    
what  made the  production  of heavy  oil  possible at  some                                                                    
smaller fields, but not at larger fields.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Molli replied that oil  production at Schrader Bluff was                                                                    
considered viscous and was slightly  lighter than heavy oil.                                                                    
There was currently no significant  production of heavy oil,                                                                    
which  was  primarily the  Ugnu  formation,  but there  were                                                                    
tests underway to determine the best way to produce it.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Representative Gara had heard  from a BP representative that                                                                    
the company planned  to move forward with  the production of                                                                    
heavy oil. He wondered when  that would take place and about                                                                    
the quantity that would be produced.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Molli  had spoken with  BP representatives, but  did not                                                                    
know the answer  to the specific question. He  added that he                                                                    
would consider the information if it was brought to DOR.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Doogan believed  that his  former assumption                                                                    
that there was  a statutory basis for  how revenue forecasts                                                                    
were developed  was incorrect. He wondered  whether it would                                                                    
be  possible  to  direct  how the  forecasts  were  made  in                                                                    
statute.   He   thought   that  an   increasingly   thorough                                                                    
projection, which  detailed what  and when  production would                                                                    
occur, would  be necessary in  the future when  fields under                                                                    
development  and under  evaluation  would be  more and  more                                                                    
necessary  to keep  production numbers  up. He  wondered how                                                                    
the  information  could  be  perfected  to  provide  a  more                                                                    
accurate projection.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner Butcher  responded that  DOR would be  happy to                                                                    
discuss the  idea, but he  thought it would be  difficult to                                                                    
put into  statute, given that the  process involved bringing                                                                    
in  a  large  amount   of  information  from  operators.  He                                                                    
explained  that the  forecasting process  was subjective  by                                                                    
nature.  Information that  sometimes  seemed optimistic  was                                                                    
derived  from the  producers;  for  example, when  producers                                                                    
provided  estimates on  production per  day, the  department                                                                    
was not able to make changes  to the data. He noted that Mr.                                                                    
Molli could provide more detail.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Representative Doogan  remarked that he didn't  need to know                                                                    
build the  car; he just wanted  to know that it  was running                                                                    
okay.  He  discussed  that  based  on  the  history  of  the                                                                    
projections there  was no reason  to believe that  they were                                                                    
accurate. He acknowledged the  importance of the projections                                                                    
and explained  that he wanted  to be proactive if  there was                                                                    
something  that could  be done  to advance  the process.  He                                                                    
stressed the need for improvement,  which would inspire more                                                                    
confidence in  the accuracy of  the projections,  given that                                                                    
the  data  impacted decisions  he  would  make on  different                                                                    
areas of the budget.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner  Butcher answered  that  they  could bring  Mr.                                                                    
Molli in to  discuss the issue and that at  the beginning of                                                                    
each  legislative  session  DOR could  present  the  details                                                                    
behind the forecast calculations.  He added that the purpose                                                                    
of the spring  forecast was to provide an  update on factors                                                                    
that had  changed the production  forecast presented  at the                                                                    
beginning  of  each  fiscal  year.  He  relayed  that  price                                                                    
forecasting had improved considerably in recent years.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Representative Costello  queried whether all of  the factors                                                                    
that  affected   production  forecasting  (slide   18)  were                                                                    
weighted  equally in  the  forecast  development. Mr.  Molli                                                                    
responded in  the negative. He elaborated  that the heaviest                                                                    
weight was  given to the  past performance of the  wells and                                                                    
fields.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Representative Costello  wondered about the role  of project                                                                    
economics in the forecast development.  She thought that the                                                                    
geology, development plan, and  production profile could all                                                                    
look  good,  but that  project  economics  could be  a  deal                                                                    
breaker.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Molli  agreed.  The  department  anticipated  that  the                                                                    
operators ran  extensive economics and would  not sanction a                                                                    
project  until they  were happy  with the  numbers they  had                                                                    
run.                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Representative   Costello  asked   whether  the   department                                                                    
examined the success  of efforts that were  made to increase                                                                    
production or whether  it relied solely on  the industry and                                                                    
historical data.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Molli  replied that  he would assign  the method  to the                                                                    
production forecast if  it had been successful  in the past;                                                                    
the method would not be utilized  if it had not produced any                                                                    
significant change in production.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
2:49:24 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative Gara  asked whether it was  plausible that BP                                                                    
had currently stalled  investment due to the  impact the oil                                                                    
spill  in  the Gulf  of  Mexico  had  had on  the  company's                                                                    
worldwide financial situation.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner  Butcher  did  not  believe  there  was  enough                                                                    
information to speculate on the answer.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner   Butcher  directed   attention  to   slide  22                                                                    
"Conclusion on Production," that  discussed what was used in                                                                    
the  production forecasting.  The department  used extensive                                                                    
well  and  field  specific  data   that  was  received  from                                                                    
producers, AOGCC, and DNR. He  relayed the importance of new                                                                    
field development in mitigating decline rates.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Representative Guttenberg wondered  whether Pt. Thompson had                                                                    
been  included   in  new  prospects.   Commissioner  Butcher                                                                    
believed that the fall 2010  forecast had estimated that Pt.                                                                    
Thompson would come online in FY 15.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Molli  clarified that  limited production  was scheduled                                                                    
to  occur  at  Pt.  Thompson  in  FY  15.  The  gasline  was                                                                    
scheduled for completion in 2021  and major production would                                                                    
not happen until that time.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Representative Edgmon  wondered whether the  committee would                                                                    
receive detail that  would show how the  tax rate adjustment                                                                    
proposed  in the  governor's oil  tax  legislation [HB  110]                                                                    
would impact factors  in the production profile  if the bill                                                                    
came to the committee.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner  Butcher   answered  that  DOR   would  present                                                                    
estimates  on  the  amount  reinvestment  would  create  and                                                                    
scenarios about  the future. The governor  had vocalized his                                                                    
preference for  the industry to  provide the  committee with                                                                    
its idea on how the tax rate would impact production.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
2:53:20 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Vice-chair  Fairclough recalled  that in  a past  production                                                                    
tax discussion  a spreadsheet had  been utilized  to provide                                                                    
multiple scenarios  for committee members. She  thought that                                                                    
it would  be helpful to  develop a similar  spreadsheet that                                                                    
showed one  barrel of oil as  a fixed point on  one axis and                                                                    
price  on  another  axis,  with   the  ability  to  generate                                                                    
multiple scenarios using different credits.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Burnett   believed  that   the  referenced   chart  was                                                                    
accessible.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Vice-chair   Fairclough   thought   the  tool   would   help                                                                    
communicate  data and  scenarios  from the  governor to  the                                                                    
legislature  and on  to the  public.  The spreadsheet  would                                                                    
also provide a  tool to examine how  amendments would impact                                                                    
the numbers.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Thomas asked  whether oil  price projections  were                                                                    
all calculated  in-house or if  some were contracted  out or                                                                    
compared to  others. Commissioner  Butcher replied  that the                                                                    
next   several  slides   provided   detail   on  oil   price                                                                    
calculations.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner  Butcher moved  to  slide  24: "Price  Forecast                                                                    
Methodology,"  which   described  how  the   price  forecast                                                                    
methodology had  been compiled over the  past several years.                                                                    
There was a  price forecasting session that  had included 27                                                                    
participants  from  the   Departments  of  Revenue,  Natural                                                                    
Resources,  Labor,  and  OMB,   the  University  of  Alaska,                                                                    
Legislative Finance  Division, and other.  Presentations had                                                                    
been  generated that  looked  at  supply, demand,  politics,                                                                    
financial   markets,  and   outside  expert   forecasts.  He                                                                    
expounded  that the  forecasting session  used the  New York                                                                    
Mercantile  Exchange  (NYMEX),   Energy  Information  Agency                                                                    
(EIA) (the  official federal forecasting agency),  and other                                                                    
sources  to develop  the most  accurate price  forecast. For                                                                    
projections beyond  FY 15 an  inflation of 2.75  percent was                                                                    
added to a constant price.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner Butcher  explained that the chart  on slide 25:                                                                    
"Price Forecasts as of October  2010," showed price session,                                                                    
analyst data, DOR  forecast, and the forecast  curve for the                                                                    
EIA and  NYMEX. The  items were  closely aligned  through FY                                                                    
12,  but   began  to  skew   in  later  years,   given  that                                                                    
forecasters tended to  vary as they moved  further away from                                                                    
the  current date  and historical  data. The  trend fell  in                                                                    
line with most federal and other expert projections.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Thomas asked  whether  DOR  predictions were  ever                                                                    
compared to those of oil analysts outside of Alaska.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner  Butcher responded  that professional  analysts                                                                    
outside the state were depicted  by the purple line shown on                                                                    
the chart (slide 25). He  reiterated that the chart included                                                                    
data  from the  NYMEX, EIA,  and  other. He  added that  the                                                                    
department would  follow up with  a chart that  included the                                                                    
different predictions and more detail on what had occurred.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Thomas  remarked  that  the  department's  numbers                                                                    
appeared  relatively aligned  with the  analyst data  (slide                                                                    
25).                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner Butcher highlighted  that the price forecasting                                                                    
was  currently much  more public  than  it had  been in  the                                                                    
past; therefore, it  would be possible to  identify and look                                                                    
into  DOR numbers  if they  appeared to  be misaligned  with                                                                    
other data.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Representative Edgmon  felt that  price calculations  were a                                                                    
product  of a  thorough and  rigorous methodology,  but that                                                                    
production projections appeared to  be much more speculative                                                                    
and  included  discretion  that   varied  dependent  on  the                                                                    
administration.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Vice-chair  Fairclough asked  for a  historical look  at how                                                                    
close  past price  and production  projections  had been  to                                                                    
what  had actually  occurred. She  wondered whether  DOR had                                                                    
looked at  the risk  management model  that was  utilized by                                                                    
APFC. She  thought the corporation's risk  model had offered                                                                    
an  interesting  look at  the  risk  involved in  price  and                                                                    
production forecasting  and could  be useful in  providing a                                                                    
different way to display projection data.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner Butcher responded that  he would participate in                                                                    
his first  APFC Board meeting  the following week  and would                                                                    
determine  whether  the board  thought  the  model would  be                                                                    
helpful for DOR projections at that time.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Burnett communicated that the  DOR Treasury Division had                                                                    
a similar  risk model that  the department would look  at as                                                                    
well.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Vice-chair  Fairclough  appreciated  the security  and  risk                                                                    
management models that were utilized  at APFC and understood                                                                    
that DOR had a similar approach.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
3:03:41 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative Costello  asked whether  DOR could  develop a                                                                    
plan  that would  provide  increased production  forecasting                                                                    
accountability. She agreed that  there was quality assurance                                                                    
in the  price forecasting; however, the  production forecast                                                                    
seemed to lack the same level of accountability.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner Butcher replied that he  would be happy to look                                                                    
into ways  to improve  production forecasting.  He explained                                                                    
that  price forecasting  was easier  given  that there  were                                                                    
analysts and  experts worldwide who worked  to determine oil                                                                    
price projections; however,  production forecasting involved                                                                    
a tremendous  amount of work that  involved discussions with                                                                    
operators regarding field locations,  when fields would come                                                                    
online, etc.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Doogan wondered  whether  it  was true  that                                                                    
there were  not any price  forecasting outliers as  shown on                                                                    
the "Price Forecasts  as of October 2010"  chart (slide 25).                                                                    
Commissioner Butcher  would get  back to the  committee with                                                                    
an answer.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner Butcher  concluded with  slide 26  titled "Fall                                                                    
2010 DOR  Oil Price  Forecast." The slide  showed the  FY 10                                                                    
actual versus  nominal prices  for West  Texas International                                                                    
(WTI)  compared  to  ANS  as well  as  annual  2.75  percent                                                                    
inflation  factored projected  prices for  FY 11  through FY                                                                    
15. The FY  10 ANS nominal price of $74.90  was projected to                                                                    
increase to $77.96 in FY 11,  $82.67 in FY 12, and $87.86 in                                                                    
FY 13.  He discussed the  expectation for a slow  and steady                                                                    
oil price increase over the next five years.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative Doogan referenced  his earlier question about                                                                    
forecasting outliers and did not  believe the information on                                                                    
slide 26 was  likely. He did not disagree  with the analysis                                                                    
as  shown over  time;  however he  wanted  a more  realistic                                                                    
price forecast on a year-to-year  basis. He thought that the                                                                    
identification of outliers would  help to determine downside                                                                    
risk,  which would  work to  inform decisions  about how  to                                                                    
utilize a budget surplus.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner Butcher  agreed and  would get  the information                                                                    
to the committee.  He recognized the possibility  that FY 13                                                                    
could have been  $105 or could just as easily  have been $60                                                                    
and that the prediction could have made.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
3:08:29 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Burnett  provided   a  PowerPoint  presentation  titled                                                                    
"State  of   Alaska:  An  Update  on   the  State's  Savings                                                                    
Accounts."  He discussed  slide 3:  "General Fund  and Other                                                                    
Non-Segregated  Investments."  He  explained  that  year-end                                                                    
market values for  2008 through 2010 were shown  for each of                                                                    
the  funds. Returns  shown on  the slide  were year  to date                                                                    
(2010 calendar year),  fiscal year to date (July  1, 2010 to                                                                    
December  31,  2010),  three year  actuals,  and  five  year                                                                    
actuals.   The  General   Fund   and  other   non-segregated                                                                    
investments held  approximately $6.5  billion at the  end of                                                                    
2010,  which  were  comprised  of  98  funds  and  accounts,                                                                    
including the  general fund, forward funding  for education,                                                                    
the Alaska  Housing Finance Corporation capital  and capital                                                                    
income  accounts,  and  the Statutory  Budget  Reserve  Fund                                                                    
(SBR). He noted  that a couple of  additional accounts would                                                                    
be  added to  the group.  Major funds  included the  General                                                                    
Fund and the  SBR, which had a balance  of $1,197,500. There                                                                    
had been a  $190 million surplus at the end  of FY 10, which                                                                    
had been transferred into the  SBR in February 2011. Forward                                                                    
funding for  education was currently close  to $1.6 billion;                                                                    
each  fiscal year  slightly over  $2 billion  was designated                                                                    
for education and approximately $1  billion of the funds was                                                                    
spent each  year. He  relayed that  a substantial  amount of                                                                    
cash flowed  through the account, including  the capital and                                                                    
operating  budgets; therefore,  a  large  portion was  fixed                                                                    
income and short-term.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Burnett  explained that  the  returns  on fixed  income                                                                    
investments  for the  current  fiscal year  were much  lower                                                                    
than they were historically  because the Federal Reserve had                                                                    
set  short-term interest  rates artificially  very low;  the                                                                    
practice was  good for businesses  and bad for  fixed income                                                                    
investments. He elaborated  that there would be  a period in                                                                    
which  fixed income  investments  would  not have  favorable                                                                    
returns, given  that short-term interest rates  could not go                                                                    
down. He furthered  that the fund would lose  a little money                                                                    
when the short-term interest rate  began to increase, but it                                                                    
would subsequently begin to earn money again.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Burnett  moved to slide 4  titled "Constitutional Budget                                                                    
Reserve Fund  (Main $  Sub)." The CBR  was divided  into two                                                                    
funds: the main fund and  the sub fund. Both funds contained                                                                    
approximately  $5 billion  at the  end  of 2010.  As of  the                                                                    
close of  business on  February 17,  2011 the  funds totaled                                                                    
$10.133  billion  and  had  increased  slightly  given  that                                                                    
equity  markets  were  currently   up.  The  main  fund  had                                                                    
increased  significantly over  the past  five years  largely                                                                    
due to  legislative deposits and settlement  money. Sub fund                                                                    
returns over the  past five years had  averaged 4.21 percent                                                                    
and  were directly  related to  investment. He  communicated                                                                    
that the main  account had performed better  during the past                                                                    
five years; however, he expected  that it would not be doing                                                                    
as well  over the next  year. The sub  fund had a  chance of                                                                    
doing  much better  if  the upswing  in  the equity  markets                                                                    
continued.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Burnett  pointed  to retirement  accounts  on  slide  5                                                                    
titled  "PERS  &  TRS."  The  Public  Employees'  Retirement                                                                    
System  (PERS) and  the  Teachers'  Retirement System  (TRS)                                                                    
accounts  had   the  fiduciary   oversight  of   the  Alaska                                                                    
Retirement Management  Board. The  accounts were made  up of                                                                    
pooled  investments  and  had the  same  asset  allocations;                                                                    
however, the  funds' returns were slightly  different due to                                                                    
different cash flows. Together  the funds contained slightly                                                                    
over $15  billion. There were  a couple of  other retirement                                                                    
funds,  including  the  Judicial  Retirement  Fund  and  the                                                                    
National Guard  and Naval  Militia Retirement  System, which                                                                    
had similar characteristics  to PERS and TRS.  The slide did                                                                    
not include  the PCE [Power Cost  Equalization] endowment or                                                                    
the Public School Trust Fund,  which were invested similarly                                                                    
and  had  similar  return characteristics  to  the  CBR  sub                                                                    
account. He noted  that he would provide  the committee with                                                                    
the account totals at a later time.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
3:15:21 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative Gara asked what  what percent of the expected                                                                    
liability  was  represented  by   the  $15  billion  in  the                                                                    
PERS/TRS funds.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Burnett answered that the  total liability was estimated                                                                    
to be in  the $25 billion range; therefore,  the funds would                                                                    
equal approximately  60 percent  of the total  liability. He                                                                    
detailed that the  total was different for PERS  and TRS and                                                                    
pensions  and health  care. Pensions  and  health care  were                                                                    
typically  separated,  but  had been  factored  together  on                                                                    
slide  5 for  the sake  of  simplicity. The  numbers on  the                                                                    
slide  did  not  include  numbers   for  the  newer  defined                                                                    
contribution system.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Vice-chair Fairclough  had read  an article  that classified                                                                    
pension funds  into four different  zones (safe,  etc.). She                                                                    
wondered whether  the state  pension fund  was rated  by the                                                                    
zones.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Burnett  replied that  he had not  seen the  ratings. He                                                                    
thought  that Alaska's  ratings were  very good  compared to                                                                    
other states.  Some other states showed  much higher funding                                                                    
levels; however,  the majority  did not include  funding for                                                                    
health  care  and  other non-pension  liabilities  in  their                                                                    
funds. Many states funded retiree  health care items as they                                                                    
arose; whereas, Alaska had always pre-funded the items.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Vice-chair Fairclough wondered whether  the state would back                                                                    
out the specific liability to  achieve a better standing for                                                                    
rating purposes.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Mr.   Burnett  replied   that   the   state  disclosed   all                                                                    
information  to ratings  agencies. He  noted that  the state                                                                    
had been upgraded to a AAA rating during the current year.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner  Butcher added  that  the  rating agencies  had                                                                    
just  begun to  take into  consideration what  the State  of                                                                    
Alaska had been  doing for quite some  time. He communicated                                                                    
that other states  were not happy with the shift  as it made                                                                    
their  retirement  systems  look  far worse  than  they  had                                                                    
previously. Alaska was one of  four states that had included                                                                    
the  information; therefore,  it  was in  much better  shape                                                                    
than other  states. The information would  be extracted from                                                                    
the  data if  the  goal was  an apples-to-apples  comparison                                                                    
between states.  He noted  that the state  was in  the upper                                                                    
portion of states in terms of liability.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Vice-chair   Fairclough  had   reviewed  pension   liability                                                                    
information  provided   by  a  labor  organization   to  its                                                                    
members.  The organization  was much  higher funded  and she                                                                    
believed  the  number  looked out  of  whack.  She  wondered                                                                    
whether  the inclusion  of  health  care considerations  was                                                                    
potentially a new method going forward.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Burnett responded that  a non-governmental pension would                                                                    
be evaluated differently.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Edgmon  queried  the number  of  active  and                                                                    
retired participants.  He thought  the number may  have been                                                                    
around  80,000. Mr.  Burnett noted  that 80,000  was not  an                                                                    
unreasonable  estimate. He  would follow  up with  the exact                                                                    
number at  a later time. He  noted that the number  was also                                                                    
available  on  the  Division   of  Retirement  and  Benefits                                                                    
website.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Representative Doogan  surmised that  the 60  percent figure                                                                    
represented the amount that would  be paid towards the total                                                                    
liability if the funds were cashed out immediately.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Burnett  explained that there were  currently 60 percent                                                                    
of  the necessary  funds to  pay retirement  benefits if  no                                                                    
more  payments  were  made to  the  funds,  state  employees                                                                    
stopped   working   immediately,  employees   eligible   for                                                                    
retirement   retired,  and   assuming  that   the  projected                                                                    
actuarial rate of return was  achieved on average during the                                                                    
entire  period  of  time. He  elaborated  that  because  the                                                                    
system  was   continuous  it  would  not   work  exactly  as                                                                    
presented in the hypothetical scenario.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Representative Edgmon  thought that health  insurance rates,                                                                    
mortality  rates,  and  other   factors  would  need  to  be                                                                    
accounted for as well.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Burnett   communicated  that  the   additional  factors                                                                    
including an  insurance rate increase, longevity,  and other                                                                    
were built into the actuarial projections.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
3:22:12 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Wilson deduced  that the  60 percent  figure                                                                    
did not  necessarily mean that all  Alaskan communities were                                                                    
60 percent invested.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Burnett  answered  that  local  governments  throughout                                                                    
Alaska  participated in  the  state's  retirement funds  and                                                                    
paid 22 percent into PERS  and approximately 12 percent into                                                                    
TRS. Under the  current system the local  governments had no                                                                    
other liability  for their employees. He  explained that the                                                                    
state paid the additional  amount above the local government                                                                    
portion  up  to  the  actuarial  required  rate  that  would                                                                    
amortize the unfunded liability for the next 21 years.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Burnett  moved on to  slide 6 titled "APFC."  He relayed                                                                    
that  at the  end  of 2010  the fund  balance  had been  $38                                                                    
billion,  which had  grown from  $28 billion  at the  end of                                                                    
2008.  The increase  had been  a combination  of cash  flows                                                                    
into  and  out  of  the fund  (e.g.  annual  permanent  fund                                                                    
dividend distribution) and investment  returns. The fund had                                                                    
earned 4.14  percent over the  past five years.  The portion                                                                    
of  the fund  invested with  equity exposure  had done  very                                                                    
well in the past year and  the overall fund had earned 14.45                                                                    
percent in the  first half of the last year  (fiscal year to                                                                    
date).                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Edgmon queried  whether  the APFC  portfolio                                                                    
was less  liquid and more  focused on long-term  growth than                                                                    
the prior two funds that had been discussed.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Burnett  replied in the  affirmative. He  expounded that                                                                    
the APFC  fund was very similar  to the PERS and  TRS funds,                                                                    
but it did not have the  same cash flow. He noted that there                                                                    
was  minimal difference  between the  five year  actuals for                                                                    
PERS, TRS, and the APFC  fund, which were 4.04 percent, 4.01                                                                    
percent, and  4.14 percent respectively. The  sub-account of                                                                    
the  CBR  fund  was  slightly higher  and  did  not  require                                                                    
rebalancing  for  cash  flows.  He noted  that  it  was  not                                                                    
possible to make an  apples-to-apples comparison between the                                                                    
different funds.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Burnett concluded  with slide  8:  "FY 2011  Investment                                                                    
Revenue  Forecast."  The  slide  showed how  each  fund  had                                                                    
performed  in  the  first  part   of  the  fiscal  year  and                                                                    
projections for  the remainder  of the  fiscal year.  He was                                                                    
not  surprised that  unrestricted income  was down  from the                                                                    
prior  year,  given  the  low interest  rates.  He  was  not                                                                    
confident that  the slightly  higher projections  would come                                                                    
to  fruition in  the  second  half of  the  fiscal year.  He                                                                    
relayed  that the  unrestricted income  did not  represent a                                                                    
large portion  of the  revenue forecast;  however, it  was a                                                                    
significant amount of money invested  that was currently not                                                                    
earning  very  much.  He  explained  that  the  trend  would                                                                    
continue until short-term interest rates improved.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Burnett discussed restricted  investments on slide 8. He                                                                    
informed the committee that the  CBR had earned $700 million                                                                    
in  the first  half  of  the fiscal  year  and the  forecast                                                                    
through June  30, 2011  was $271 million.  To date  the fund                                                                    
had earned  approximately $200 million  in the  second half,                                                                    
but it  was possible  that the market  could flatten  out or                                                                    
change before  the end of  the period. The  Alaska Permanent                                                                    
Fund  had already  earned  more  in the  first  half of  the                                                                    
fiscal  year than  was projected  for the  entire FY  11. He                                                                    
furthered that the  fund was invested for  the long-term and                                                                    
there had been  good absolute performance to  date. He noted                                                                    
that it was unclear how  long the equity market upturn would                                                                    
last.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner  Butcher  added  that the  permanent  fund  was                                                                    
almost as high as it had been prior to 2008.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Doogan observed  that  he  should have  been                                                                    
more  concerned about  investment income  than oil  revenue.                                                                    
Mr.  Burnett   remarked  that   things  were   leaning  that                                                                    
direction. He  communicated that  since 2004,  excluding the                                                                    
money in  the retirement  funds, the  money invested  by DOR                                                                    
had   increased    from   approximately   $5    billion   to                                                                    
approximately $18 billion.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Thomas  thanked Commissioner Butcher and  DOR staff                                                                    
for their presentations.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
ADJOURNMENT                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
The meeting was adjourned at 3:29 PM.                                                                                           

Document Name Date/Time Subjects
DNR Revenue Forecast Overview to HFC 2 18 11.pdf HFIN 2/18/2011 1:30:00 PM
DNR State Savings Accounts to HFC 2 18 11.pdf HFIN 2/18/2011 1:30:00 PM